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BBC Radio Cambridgeshire: Naturists UK's Richard Collins in half-hour interview with Alex Harris

Transcription of BBC Radio Cambridgeshire, Drive Time programme hosted by Alex Harris
Wednesday 07-Mar-2007 6:20-6:50pm
[AH: Alex Harris]
[RC: Richard Collins]

AH: We'll be exploring someone else's world in Cambridgeshire where we look at different people, different activities round the county, things you can do things, you might want to try, things you might be interested in. And today we're going to be talking naturism, and I'm very pleased to welcome Richard Collins to the studio. Thanks for coming along at such short notice, Richard, because we only called you this afternoon.

RC: Hello Alex.

AH: Welcome to Drive Time.

RC: Well it's a pleasure to be here.

AH: Now, let's get some terms sorted. First, are you a practising naturist? How do you define yourself in that respect, or do you?

RC: Yeah, well, I'm happy with the term naturist. I think most of the general public know what it means. There are some naturists who aren't particularly happy with the label, y'know, they just like to be individuals, and they just prefer the freedom of not having to wear clothes.

AH: People, as it were...

RC: Yeah. Some people don't like to be labelled, which is fair dos. Nudist, naturist, it means the same thing really to most of us. Some prefer the term nudist. In America, nudist actually means the equivalent of our naturist so that does add a little bit of confusion. In America they don't know what naturist means. They think you're a naturalist or something, studying or environmentalist or something. But it's all about nature anyway, so I think naturist is appropriate for it.

AH: Tell me what it means to you, though, what does being a naturist mean to you?

RC: Back to nature. What it means is just comfort when it's warm enough not to wear clothes. Simple as that really.

AH: Just not feeling the obligation everyday to put on your clothes before you go out?

RC: Yeah, I guess it might be a bit awkward if people going to work without clothes on, but why not? I mean, it depends on where you work, who you work with. But this idea that when you get out of bed the first thing you do is put clothes on: when it's warm in summer, you don't need to; what's the point? And so it's just lovely to walk around the house and go out into your garden without worrying. And the first house we had, we lived in a terraced house and none of the neighbours minded, so that was absolutely fine.

AH: Fortunate in that respect, but I assume some people would occasionally mind.

RC: There's always the odd one or two, yeah. It's quite rare; I very rarely meet anyone that strongly objects to it. We lived in Waltham Cross in North London, and I could be seen in the garden from three or four doors away and they were families, retired people. The only trouble we had was when a young couple moved in next door (they were in their early twenties) in the winter, and I appeared in the garden in the summer and they were a bit surprised. But I don't know, young people, you'd think they'd be fine with it, but the older generation, they've been there done it, seen it, it's not an issue at all. There was a lady next door but one, she was saying to me "Must be nice to swim like it", y'know she was in her sixties, and she moved down with her husband to Studland, and that's where I got into naturism in late 1970s, 1979-80.

AH: What was it that got you into it? Was it, d'you think, something that was always lying dormant in you, as it were?

RC: Well, yes I think it was, yeah. I think I've realised that in the last couple of years. It started to dawn on me that from an early age I was happy without clothes on, comfortable with my body. I've always liked the outdoors, fresh air, sunshine, and I've tanned easily. So if you don't burn then you don't really need to cover up. Obviously you need to take care and tan gradually so I don't go out and have a two-week stint in the sun in the summer like most people, so I don't burn. I'm out there from April onwards gradually building up the tan and then in the height of the summer I don't need to worry about sun cream. But what first got us into it was really just going down to Studland Beach, and discovering that that was a naturist beach quite by accident. We were down there for a week holiday and we went there every day that week and thoroughly enjoyed it: the freedom to be able to swim and to sun bathe not worrying about a costume. The worst thing, I think, with costumes is sitting on a beach in a wet, clammy costume after you've come out of the sea.

AH: Yes with the sand...

RC: That's right, and by the time you're dry you're ready to go back in the sea again.

AH: It's not great is it?

RC: Whereas the skin dries naturally quite quickly; it's just much more comfortable.

AH: OK you've talked about activity, how you behave at home, you're in the garden that's fine that's no problem, but you go further afield, don't you? And I've seen you actually around Cambridge on your bike without any clothes on.

RC: That's right.

AH: Now that's not what every naturist does.

RC: No, that's quite unusual. I mean I started naturist rambling with a group up North in Yorkshire. They're called Coast and Country, run by a guy David Martin, and he's been providing a service to naturists for about thirty years, since 1982, I think, when he got into it. He was into outdoor pursuits for young people taking them out on walks and stuff, and he got into naturism and thought, why not organise some naturist walks in the Yorkshire dales, and these were termed Yorky Walkies. So I went on one with my wife and my children. I took them they were eight and six at the time; they kept their clothes on, they were more comfortable in their shorts and t-shirts, but there was a group of about thirty of us going out for a walk in the country there, and the general response is absolutely fine from other people because they know you're there just on a walk, especially when it's an organised group. And so it stemmed on from there. We went on two or three of these walks, and more recently I joined Singles Outdoor Club which is an organisation, a national group, and they have walks in the South-East mainly. They'd like to do them all over the country but they don't have enough walk leaders, which is a bit of shame. So I joined some of those in the South-
East Broad Chalke walk is the best one because you've got fantastic views of... I'm not sure what the area is called, but anyway...

AH: And of each other as well?

RC: Well, this is it; you don't even notice someone hasn't got any clothes on after the first couple of minutes, you're just so used to it. The response from the public is "lovely day for it", y'know, so...

AH: Certainly, in some of those contexts, but what about the response around town?

RC: Right, having gone out walking in groups and not wanting to wear clothes generally and wanting to go out when I feel like it, I've been on cycle rides in the country around Cambridge, and it was just the case one day in 2002 that I though, y'know, why do I always put shorts on just to go through this, like, village or something. What happens if I don't? So I tried it one day, and came from Hardwick (where I live) through to Coton, and then I thought: this is it, I'm going for it. And I came out of the fields onto the roadway, through Coton. There wasn't much response till I got to the cricket ground, and they were just finishing their cricket match and were walking off quietly applauding each other. I couldn't have timed it better if I'd tried, but of course they saw me and the applause turned to rapturous applause and cheers. So I thought: well if that's people's response, why did I worry about it. Anyway, I continued on into Cambridge (this was I think a Sunday afternoon) and England had beaten Germany in the world cup [***]. This was four years ago from last year, in 2002, and of course everybody thought I was out celebrating England's victory, I think, so of course the response I got in Cambridge was fantastic. So I made my way through Cambridge up past the bus station, Emmanuel Street, the bridge, and thought: it's not quite where I want to go. So I did a U-turn and went back and then everybody cheered again as I went past the bus stop. Deep embarrassment, you know, getting lost when you're naked on your bike is not the best thing, having to go back down the same road.

AH: They're all great responses but I mean a lot of people will see you on a Saturday afternoon in town. D'you get things like mothers hiding their kids' eyes?

RC: No, not at all. Just after this, I made my way across Jesus Green, and I could hear music and I thought: it's the Strawberry Fair (it was a Saturday not Sunday, that's right), and I'd picked the day of the Strawberry Fair, something I would normally go to. I love it. But I'd forgotten the day, and I thought: well, OK, let's just go for it. So I went along the towpath. It was absolutely packed, and there were people of all ages, families, kids, and nobody was at all bothered.

AH: You do see some sights on Strawberry Fair day though.

RC: So I put my sarong on when I got onto the Fair itself. But I've been there every year, and if the sun's out I'm usually sitting in front of the main stage, on the grass without anything on, and people sit around, join me and chat. That's the great leveller, it's a real ice-breaker, people come up and talk to me, which you wouldn't do ordinarily if you're clothed, I think clothing is such a barrier.

AH: Indeed. Yeah, it can be, so nakedness is not as intimidating as some people might think. Well, Richard, we'll get some news and travel now, but afterwards we'll talk about your activity within the world of naturism. I suppose, because it's not only about your life, you're fully and full-time involved in promoting...

RC: Yes, that's right.

AH: ...naturism in other areas and to other people, so we'll talk about that after we get some headlines...

[NEWS and TRAVEL]

AH: Always one question worth asking: is it legal or it not? We'll be addressing just that issue after David Bowie in Changes.

[DAVID BOWIE Changes]

AH: We're talking "Mad About Cambridgeshire" this evening. Richard Collins, naturist, living just outside Cambridge, is joining me for this hour. We've talked about the nature of naturism, and how you got into it, as it were, but one thing that always crops up when people discuss it and you read about it in the news is whether it's legal or not legal, because the famous case is the naked rambler. So I wonder if you can clear it all up for us.

RC: Right, well, it's not illegal to be naked in public. There is an offence of exposure under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where, if you're exposing yourself with intent to cause alarm and distress, that's an offence. But obviously someone's got to see you, they've got to be alarmed and distressed, and if you go to court it has to be proven. So if you're just out for a stroll in the countryside or riding your bike minding your own business for a bit of fresh air, sunshine and exercise, and you have no intention of causing alarm and distress to people, then it isn't illegal at all.

AH: So the authorities, or the powers that be, perceived the naked rambler had intent to cause alarm and distress?

RC: Well, no. On the first walk he did, he was arrested about fifteen times before he got to Scotland, in England and Wales. The second walk, he was only arrested once. That just demonstrates how the police were able to brush up on the law and get it right and into perspective. The only reason he was arrested on the second walk was when someone complained. Him and Melanie were in a supermarket, and this women took offence at them being naked in a supermarket, and complained. But although it went to court, the case against him was dropped. Now he's still actually in prison in Scotland because he refuses to dress. In
Scotland the law's a bit different and he was arrested on Breach of the Peace. Now that has been clarified, and I don't understand why he was arrested, why he went to court, because my understanding of Scots law Breach of the Peace has to be outrageous or extreme behaviour that would cause severe outrage to somebody. Can't think of the exact words.

AH: Right. So how long has he been in prison?

RC: Best part of a year, I think, off and on. It's ridiculous. Every time he came out he got arrested again. The police were actually waiting outside to arrest him. If he didn't get dressed he was going to be arrested there and then again on Breach of the Peace.

AH: Well, that's it. So for him it's a fundamental matter of principle, isn't it? Must be, to be that stubbornly refusing to wear clothes.

RC: Well yes. Absolutely, I mean, he's obviously playing this the way he wants in order to challenge authority, challenge the law. I mean I believe the law's wrong. I think most people using common sense would say the law is wrong. So why the police are actually waiting outside the prison, just to re-arrest him and allege Breach of the Peace when there's no one around at seven o'clock in the morning outside a Scottish jail, only the police themselves: it's beyond me.

AH: Now, I don't often agree with the people who say: haven't the police anything better to do? But I think I will in that instance. It's obviously something that's very close to his heart, he wants to protect the freedom to go bare.

RC: Can I just add quickly that each time he went to court, because he refused to get dressed he didn't appear in court, and then he was held in Contempt of Court, so he was given prison sentences for Contempt of Court. And because he's persevered, he's actually got to the stage where five Scottish High Court judges have sat to review this Contempt of Court issue, and that was a couple of weeks ago, and I understand they were going to give a written judgement, but I haven't seen anything in the press as to what the outcome of that is.

AH: But outcome is hopefully nearing on that?

RC: Yeah, but a couple of years ago you were getting protesters, dockyard protesters, anti-war, anti- missile protesters getting arrested on the same charge, Breach of the Peace, sitting in a road protesting, and that is the reason why the Scottish Breach of the Peace was reviewed and changed to mean severe disturbance to a reasonable person.

AH: What it does demonstrate is that some people still take issue with nakedness of people in public. But let's talk about you and your activity within the world of naturism. Now looking at some of your notes a couple of websites are jumping out: one is Go-Bare.org that's been running, but you also run other websites.

RC: Go-Bare.org is a discussion forum that's been going for two years. I've just set up Naturists-UK.org which is a new national organisation. It's intended to be complementary to the existing British Naturism. I was a member of that for twenty years but I decided not to renew about a year ago because they're still, some would say, living in the 1950s, hi-de-hi behind high hedges and fences, a bit like the Carry On film. I mean it's great fun, the clubs are fantastic, they provide a nice safe environment for families, they have facilities, swimming pools, saunas, a club house, so very good social atmosphere at these clubs, but a lot more want to be able to enjoy the outdoors in the country, rivers, beaches.

AH: And real freedom amongst the population as well.

RC: Yes, basically, so Naturists-UK is more intended to represent members and campaign on their behalf.

AH: One of the distinctions is that your activity is much more open to the public. You're amongst the public. Some people will say that part of it is "look at me, I'm different, I'm wearing no clothes". There is a certain amount of attention seeking.

RC: Well, there's an element of that in terms of it's invigorating, fun, but I don't do it for attention seeking, not at all, it's just being yourself really.

AH: OK, before we get the travel at a quarter to, I asked you to pick a favourite track. You've picked San Francisco by Scott Mackenzie. Tell us very quickly why you've picked that track.

RC: Well I suppose it harks back to the hippie era, and in 2005 I was at Glastonbury Music Festival, and after the rains, I came out of my tent with nothing on, and the sun was shining and that's how I spent the next three days and people just loved it.

AH: Great, thanks, San Francisco, Scott Mackenzie.

[SCOTT MACKENZIE San Francisco]

[TRAVEL]

AH: Drive Time. Good evening, "Mad About Cambridgeshire" at the moment, we're talking naturism with Richard Collins. Now we've heard a lot about your life as a naturist. But I understand you're full time devoted to naturism and promotion of naturism.

RC: That's right, yes.

AH: Who pays for that?

RC: Ah, slight sore point there. My wife works and she's paying the household bills at the moment. Naturists-UK is hopefully going to earn me an income, so we have actually got a proper paying membership. We've set our rates very low: it's £20 for an individual for a year, £33.50 for a couple and £40 for a family.

AH: To get their services in a community?

RC: Well we want to organise events, so obviously we need some money to run it as a proper business, so we can pay the costs of setting up and organising events. We're going to have three beach weekends, and we've got other ideas in the pipeline.

AH: What would these beach weekends involve, then?

RC: Just basically meeting up with people on the beach. This is something British Naturism did last year and we thought we'd pick the same weekends as they're doing. They've actually got three dates on the Sunday, so we're going to try and do it Saturday and Sunday, so we'll be meeting other BN members and people who might be interested in joining our organisation or BN or both, and get the best of both worlds. So it's just a case of having the opportunity to meet people on the beach, talk to people because, like your listeners tonight, they're interested to hear more about it, find out more about it, where to go, and that's the point of the website. So we'll have information on it like a club directory, beaches directory, where people can go and enjoy naturism and where they'll meet other naturists and feel in a safe environment.

H: And you were involved with the organisation of the World Naked Bike Ride, is that right? So tell me about how successful that was. Interested to know if you got new people coming along who hadn't, let's say, tried it before. I mean, were there many people on this bike ride?

RC: I guess there must have been. I mean that's been phenomenally successful, It was an idea that came from Canada, Conrad and another guy, and the first ride was in 2004, and I liaised with police because the ride was going to take place in Hyde Park, and I thought they would just clamp down on it and stop it, so I thought: if I contact them and let them know what was planned. And it was a Saturday evening at 9 o'clock kick-off riding around; the proposal was around the streets outside of Hyde Park. When I talked to them they thought: yup, fine OK, but better to have it in the park, it's much safer. They had an escort riding ahead of us to warn the public, and there was only one family that decided not to stick around and watch us go by. They thought that was a bit of a waste of police resources. We started with 40 riders and ended up with 58. Some people saw us en route, got their kit off, jumped on their bike and carried on. We rode slowly round the park and it was wonderful, a great experience. We had a couple of people on ice skates, a woman, the Silver Queen, she had body paint on, she looked absolutely phenomenal, stunning, tall and blonde.

AH: Does that count as clothing though?

RC: Well, you go out and express yourself as you like, with something like the World Naked Bike Ride, it's there. The primary purpose is to campaign against oil dependency so it's got a serious issue behind it. But it's about living in harmony with nature, not depending on oil, and celebrating the individuality of the human body, they're the key elements of the ride. I'd just say, last year we had eight or nine hundred, we're not quite sure of the total number. It's been going three years, so it grew from 58 the first year to eight, nine hundred in the third year on a six-seven mile route round the centre of London with full police escort. In fact for the numbers that turned up, we didn't have enough police. It went really well, and again, incredible luck because the day was so warm (10th June last year, this year it's the 9th June) It was on the day, again, that England was doing very well in the World Cup...

AH: There's a connection there.

RC: ...an awful lot of revellers out on the pavement with beers, and when they saw us go by they obviously thought it was fantastic, so we got fantastic support, y'know, the traffic along Oxford Street was at a standstill when we went by and it took half an hour for all the riders to go by, so you can imagine standing on the pavement for half an hour, sipping your pint, while nine hundred naked people...

AH: I don't imagine the taxi drivers were best pleased, but there's no pleasing some of them anyway. Now you're interested in bringing this bike ride to Cambridge?

RC: Well that would be a nice idea because, y'know, Cambridge is a city I love, and I've not had any hassle for the last four years cycling naked, and it's the cycling capital of the world, is it not? The World Naked Bike Ride takes place simultaneously in about fifty different cities around the world. Last year in the UK there was (we've mentioned) London, there was one in Brighton, York and Manchester I think, so it would be great to have one in Cambridge as well. I'm happy to liaise with people, but if you go to WorldNakedBikeRide.org you can get all the details, and Naturists-UK.org (our website) has the link to WNBR.

AH: Great. Well many thanks Richard Collins for joining us on "Mad About Cambridge" here on Drive Time this evening, and, just for anyone who is wondering, you are fully clothed this evening, it's still a bit cold.

RC: Yeah, it's still chilly. If anyone is wondering about getting arrested, I got arrested twice in 2002, but because I put my clothes on and didn't argue, they let me go, and that's fine. They haven't arrested me since.

AH: Not too big a rebel in that respect. I've asked you pick another track: "Why does it always rain on me?"

RC: Well I said about going to Glastonbury in 2005 in the sunshine, I've been three times in all. I didn't start until 2000. You're never too old to go to Glastonbury. It's wonderful, going naked is absolutely the best thing you can do, and I got such good response that at the Pyramid Stage I heard Travis play this, and it started to rain but I kept my clothes on and it didn't rain for long.

AH: Yes, this is Travis' "Why does it always rain on me?"

[TRAVIS Why does it always rain on me?]